16:47:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbg
16:47:34 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-pbg-irc
16:47:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:47:37 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
16:47:46 <ivan> Chair: liisa
16:47:47 <ivan> Date: 2020-01-07
16:47:47 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Jan/0000.html
16:47:47 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Agenda 2020-01-07: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-publishingbg/2020Jan/0000.html
16:47:48 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Business Group Telco
16:57:42 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #pbg
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16:59:48 <Karen> present+ Karen
16:59:51 <laudrain> present+
17:00:02 <wolfgang> present+ wolfgang
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17:00:22 <dauwhe> present+
17:00:29 <Ralph> present+
17:00:40 <liisamk> present+
17:01:02 <ivan> present+
17:01:46 <tzviya> present+
17:01:46 <Avneesh> Avneesh has joined #pbg
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17:01:54 <jeff> present+
17:02:09 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
17:02:39 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbg
17:02:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
17:03:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> FYI I will have to leave at 12:30 and may be interrupted in the meantime.
17:03:10 <wendyreid> present+
17:03:43 <Ralph> present+ George
17:03:48 <rkwright> rkwright has joined #pbg
17:04:21 <Avneesh> present+
17:04:42 <dauwhe> Topic: status of epubcheck fundraising
17:04:42 <George> George has joined #pbg
17:04:52 <rkwright> present+
17:04:53 <dauwhe> liisamk: at the end of the year there was good news
17:04:54 <ivan> chair: laudrain
17:04:55 <George> present+
17:05:09 <dauwhe> ... $15k from various companies, including APL and Firebrand
17:05:19 <dauwhe> s/liisamk/laudrain/
17:05:45 <dauwhe> ... we are not yet to the figures we will have to pay at the end of February
17:05:55 <dauwhe> ... we still need $4k to pay the developers
17:06:28 <dauwhe> ... I have not yet received contributions from some European companies I have contacted
17:06:41 <liisamk> q+
17:06:52 <julieblair> julieblair has joined #pbg
17:06:59 <dauwhe> ... for all the work we want to do this year, we are still $35k short
17:07:19 <laudrain> q?
17:07:24 <julieblair> present+
17:07:24 <garth> garth has joined #pbg
17:07:27 <dauwhe> liisamk: I started to write an introduction letter to go with the survey
17:07:31 <garth> present+ Garth
17:07:31 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:07:37 <dauwhe> ... and was going to include a plea for paying for epubcheck
17:07:51 <Jonathan> Jonathan has joined #pbg
17:07:56 <dauwhe> ... I want it to be easy for people to take action
17:07:57 <jeff> q+
17:08:06 <laudrain> ack jeff
17:08:11 <dauwhe> jeff: that's an interesting idea
17:08:30 <dauwhe> ... and I'm trying to process it. The motivation is good. We're reaching out to lots of people.
17:08:54 <dauwhe> ... but all of us get asked by hundreds of organizations to give money every year
17:09:13 <dauwhe> ... if I get a funding I'm less likely to pay attention to anything else that's in the request
17:09:31 <dauwhe> ... I worry if we do this we might discourage people from filling out the survey
17:09:36 <liisamk> q+
17:09:43 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:09:56 <dauwhe> liisamk: Jeff, I think we can call out the fact that we've done this work, getting it off the ground
17:10:03 <Ralph> i/FYI I/-> https://w3c.github.io/publ-bg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-12-17-pbg previous 17-Dec-2019
17:10:12 <dauwhe> ... the way I'm writing this, I'm heading into a new decade, here's what we've done including epubcheck
17:10:23 <dauwhe> ... and at the end I mention this
17:10:41 <dauwhe> ... I think Luc's idea of reaching out individually to people we know, like vendors, is better
17:10:46 <dauwhe> ... but this is another reminder
17:10:50 <tzviya> q+
17:10:56 <laudrain> ack tzviya
17:11:17 <dauwhe> tzviya: here's a suggestion: instead of an introduction letter, put it at the end of the survey after they've filled it out
17:11:21 <jeff> +1 to Tzviya's idea
17:11:36 <wendyreid> +1
17:11:48 <wolfgang> +1
17:12:01 <dauwhe> laudrain: tzviya, on your side I think you reached a bunch of companies. do you have news?
17:12:07 <dauwhe> tzviya: no. I'll send reminders.
17:12:11 <dauwhe> laudrain: so will I.
17:12:29 <dauwhe> ... we've done a lot. We will continue.
17:12:48 <dauwhe> Topic: Survey
17:13:06 <dauwhe> laudrain: Liisa and Dave, could you let you know?
17:13:08 <laudrain> q?
17:13:21 <dauwhe> liisamk: I will be working on the introduction letter and to putting more into the survey questions
17:13:33 <dauwhe> ... we have another week or more of review before we send it out
17:13:52 <dauwhe> ... my proposal is that we start with a small group in the BG, make sure it works and makes sense,
17:14:02 <dauwhe> ... then roll out to CG/WG/BG
17:14:15 <dauwhe> ... I've started collecting names of people outside of this
17:14:26 <dauwhe> ... who are active online or in publishing
17:14:30 <dauwhe> ... I'll send a link
17:14:42 <dauwhe> ... and as tzviya brought up, we should all be socialize this
17:14:49 <dauwhe> ... and get it out before the end of the month
17:14:59 <dauwhe> ... and get initial feedback in February
17:15:12 <dauwhe> ... for the SC F2F
17:15:25 <laudrain> scribe+ laudrain
17:15:41 <laudrain> Dave: George contributed to some questions
17:15:55 <laudrain> … that have been merged
17:15:59 <laudrain> q?
17:16:26 <dauwhe> laudrain: any more comments on the survey?
17:16:44 <dauwhe> ... Dave told us we should have a look at the documents
17:16:51 <dauwhe> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZLAIgAH7hoWo56uov3QN2-jaMY6MaWQKJrAys1GwDdY/edit#
17:17:34 <dauwhe> Topic: Calls
17:17:49 <dauwhe> laudrain: we have seen the schedule for calls
17:17:58 <dauwhe> ... there is the question of daylight savings time
17:18:24 <dauwhe> ... Daihei will write about the proper time schedule for Asia/US call
17:18:47 <dauwhe> garth: there is the daylight savings time issue, and there was a shift between tues/wed
17:18:51 <dauwhe> ... I'll wait for Daihei
17:18:56 <dauwhe> laudrain: thanks Garth
17:19:13 <dauwhe> Topic: Audiobook standard
17:19:24 <dauwhe> laudrain: could we have a small status?
17:19:44 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the tests are now live, they are hosted at (link TK)
17:19:49 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/publ-tests
17:20:00 <dauwhe> ... we have a test repo in github, which will host all publishing tests
17:20:06 <dauwhe> ... I'll be adding some sample content
17:20:20 <dauwhe> ... there are some sample implementations from Matt and Ivan
17:20:31 <dauwhe> ... we're hoping to see things from Lars or other implementors soon
17:20:41 <dauwhe> ... we're working on some formatting stuff to make reporting easier
17:20:53 <dauwhe> laudrain: what are the next steps?
17:20:53 <david_stroup> david_stroup has joined #pbg
17:21:04 <dauwhe> ... is there a schedule?
17:21:11 <dauwhe> wendyreid: the testing will run to March 31
17:21:21 <dauwhe> ... then we will review the test coverage
17:21:46 <dauwhe> ... and then we will go for PR, which is six weeks of review, when the AC reviews and votes
17:21:54 <dauwhe> ... and if they approve we get to REC
17:22:04 <dauwhe> ivan: wendyreid knows the process better than I do :)
17:22:16 <dauwhe> laudrain: we are on schedule for 2020?
17:22:18 <dauwhe> wendyreid: yes
17:22:36 <dauwhe> ... we're hoping for REC before the end of our charter on July 1
17:23:00 <dauwhe> liisamk: wendyreid and leslie were talking about how to help publishers understand what's coming
17:23:22 <dauwhe> ... best practices, the metadata that is needed to be part of the project is a new thing for the producers of this content
17:23:35 <Karen> +1 Webinar with BISG
17:23:35 <dauwhe> ... we talked to Brian at BISG, so we're going to do a BISG webinar on Feb 18
17:23:45 <dauwhe> ... to introduce the concept
17:23:52 <dauwhe> ... brian is getting us an audience
17:24:16 <dauwhe> ... and the material we develop for this will be broadly useful
17:24:19 <wendyreid> q+
17:24:27 <laudrain> ack wendyreid
17:24:42 <dauwhe> wendyreid: I'm going to be speaking next week at Project Voice about the audiobook spec
17:24:53 <dauwhe> ... which I hope will increase the audience for this
17:25:06 <dauwhe> laudrain: could you put a link to the conference in IRC?
17:25:09 <wendyreid> https://www.projectvoice.ai/
17:25:26 <dauwhe> wendyreid: it's in the US, in Chattanooga, TN
17:25:52 <dauwhe> laudrain: this will be an item for the Digital Publishing Summit in June
17:26:16 <dauwhe> ... 4th and 5th of June
17:26:31 <dauwhe> ... in Madrid
17:27:10 <dauwhe> laudrain: will it be a topic at Techforum in Toronto in March?
17:27:12 <dauwhe> wendyreid: yes
17:27:21 <Ralph> -> https://www.edrlab.org/2020/01/06/digital-publishing-summit-2020-call-for-proposals-and-save-the-date/ Digital PUblishing SUmmit 2020: Call for proposals
17:27:35 <dauwhe> Topic: SC meeting
17:27:49 <dauwhe> laudrain: there will be an SC meeting in NY on February 24
17:27:55 <jeff> q+
17:28:18 <laudrain> ack jeff
17:28:38 <dauwhe> jeff: a SC F2F is an extremely valuable opportunity for us, even if some folks are remote
17:28:46 <dauwhe> ... we have six or seven weeks to plan
17:29:09 <dauwhe> ... I hope whoever is planning the agenda will use the meeting as a way to relaunch ourselves
17:29:15 <dauwhe> ... and get some next steps
17:29:24 <dauwhe> ... who is chairing the meeting? The BG chairs?
17:29:30 <laudrain> q+
17:29:31 <dauwhe> ... I'd like to see a first draft agenda soon.
17:29:49 <dauwhe> laudrain: the SC does not have chairs
17:29:58 <dauwhe> ... we discussed some time ago
17:30:05 <tzviya> q+
17:30:15 <dauwhe> ... the different group co-chairs running
17:30:25 <liisamk> q+
17:30:32 <dauwhe> ... we should probably prepare in the agenda the co-chairs of different groups
17:30:34 <laudrain> ack laudrain
17:30:43 <laudrain> ack tzviya
17:30:45 <dauwhe> tzviya: we've had rotating chairs
17:30:51 <dauwhe> ... I've been working on an agenda
17:30:57 <dauwhe> ... I can share with the SC
17:31:01 <Bill_Kasdorf> I need to jump to another meeting. Will catch up on the minutes. Thanks for great scribing, Dave!
17:31:04 <dauwhe> ... we can discuss on Friday
17:31:11 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:31:13 <dauwhe> liisamk: that's good, Tzviya
17:31:18 <dauwhe> ... we can discuss on Friday
17:31:32 <dauwhe> ... the reason to put it on the agenda today is to be transparent about having this meeting
17:31:39 <dauwhe> ... and get a relaunch and roadmap
17:31:51 <dauwhe> ... and we want all group people to give us ideas on where we should be headed
17:31:58 <dauwhe> ... reach out to any of our chairs
17:32:06 <laudrain> q?
17:32:06 <dauwhe> ... where should publishing at w3c be headed?
17:32:25 <dauwhe> Topic: a11y
17:32:40 <dauwhe> laudrain: we have heard a11y concerns around the world
17:32:54 <dauwhe> ... we feel some parts of the world is already involved
17:32:59 <dauwhe> ... and some are far behind
17:33:06 <dauwhe> ... they would like to discover more
17:33:39 <dauwhe> ... as PBG, we could discuss how this knowledge flows from us, could be shared with others
17:34:12 <dauwhe> ... we would like to share this discussion with you
17:34:23 <dauwhe> liisamk: we were hearing from daihei yesterday
17:34:37 <dauwhe> ... that many publishers are interested in a11y but unsure what is required of them
17:34:41 <wendyreid> q+
17:34:49 <dauwhe> ... they are uncertain what the changes in euro law mean for their publications
17:34:58 <dauwhe> ... how can we get euro publishers, or get legal help
17:35:13 <dauwhe> ... some amount of work is being done on website a11y
17:35:25 <dauwhe> ... as that is seen as a bigger legal risk in the US
17:35:29 <dauwhe> ... but the work is similar
17:35:51 <dauwhe> ... are any of us looking, as my org is, to collaborate on web/app/publications simultaneously?
17:35:56 <dauwhe> ... and get everyone trained
17:36:03 <tzviya> q+
17:36:04 <laudrain> ack wendyreid
17:36:20 <dauwhe> wendyreid: a few weeks from now, Canada is having an annual a11y in publishing summit
17:36:32 <dauwhe> ... I'm hoping for guidance on what publishers are looking for
17:36:40 <dauwhe> ... Canadian publishers are asking the same questions
17:36:55 <dauwhe> ... it's not a local problem, it's an international problem
17:37:01 <Karen> +1 International challenge
17:37:06 <dauwhe> ... lots of questions
17:37:19 <dauwhe> ... so I'm hoping the summit will give us some feedback on what publishers need
17:37:29 <dauwhe> ... there's drive to do it; they just need guidance
17:37:46 <Karen> https://www.accessiblepublishing.ca/about-the-2020-summit/
17:37:56 <laudrain> ack tzviya
17:38:05 <dauwhe> tzviya: liisamk was asking in a11y in books vs web
17:38:14 <dauwhe> ... at wiley we're looking at a11y across the board
17:38:30 <dauwhe> ... there's little that's unique about ebook a11y
17:38:41 <dauwhe> ... so the ebook a11y folks are also working on other things
17:38:50 <George> present+q+
17:38:55 <dauwhe> ... and all of the training affects websites, learning management systems, etc
17:39:03 <laudrain> ack George
17:39:11 <liisamk>  q+
17:39:12 <dauwhe> George: wendy mentioned that the guidelines in different countries
17:39:24 <dauwhe> ... i think it's critical that we work from a single set of guidelines
17:39:30 <laudrain> q+
17:39:32 <dauwhe> ... diverging guidelines would create chaos
17:39:45 <dauwhe> ... we've seen that with 508 vs wcag
17:40:01 <dauwhe> ... FYI in the US universities and schools are required to make their coursework accessible
17:40:14 <dauwhe> ... but more and more of the orgs are pointing to born accessible publications
17:40:33 <dauwhe> ... and the school put themselves at risk if they select an inaccessible publication over an accessible one
17:40:44 <dauwhe> ... but the requirement isn't on the publisher. it's a level of indirection.
17:40:57 <dauwhe> ... and it may be different after the euro stuff
17:41:04 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:41:11 <dauwhe> liisamk: george, you're right that things not being direct is confusing
17:41:23 <dauwhe> ... isn't that bookshare's job? we know that's not the right answer
17:41:33 <dauwhe> ... but we need to get people to understand why that's not the right ansswer
17:41:52 <dauwhe> ... the training... we're looking at the variety of training that's available
17:42:00 <dauwhe> ... how to you train lots of people
17:42:14 <dauwhe> ... so you know if PRH is AA compliant across the org
17:42:14 <liisamk> https://www.w3.org/2019/12/pressrelease-intro-web-accessibility-course.html.en
17:42:29 <dauwhe> ... one of my people is going to take the w3c training
17:42:39 <jeff> q+
17:42:41 <Karen> +1
17:42:57 <dauwhe> laudrain: you are right tzviya that it's a11y across the board
17:43:11 <dauwhe> ... with the euro act there's a focus on each part of supply chain
17:43:17 <dauwhe> ... for the publishers it's on the content
17:43:24 <dauwhe> ... unless they are selling direct
17:43:44 <dauwhe> ... and metadata
17:44:06 <dauwhe> ... we should find ways to share solutions and awareness
17:44:27 <dauwhe> ... there is a lot of stuff out there
17:44:53 <laudrain> q?
17:44:57 <Karen> q+
17:44:59 <laudrain> ack laudrain
17:45:05 <dauwhe> jeff: thanks liisa for the plug
17:45:07 <ivan> ack jeff
17:45:07 <laudrain> ack jeff
17:45:23 <dauwhe> ... we're using MIT's infrastructure
17:45:36 <dauwhe> ... we have an a11y course
17:45:48 <dauwhe> ... which should appeal to everyone, not just developers
17:46:03 <dauwhe> ... spread the word
17:46:06 <dauwhe> q?
17:46:17 <laudrain> ack Karen
17:46:19 <dauwhe> Karen: thanks for having this topic
17:46:37 <dauwhe> ... during the last several months I've had lots of conversations, and this is a recurring theme
17:46:44 <dauwhe> ... the need for education and information materials
17:47:09 <dauwhe> ... Luc, you may recall that Sean Henry from WAI education outreach would be willing to work with PBG even for a simple landing page
17:47:14 <George> q+
17:47:25 <dauwhe> ... just pointing to WAI, euro laws, etc.
17:47:30 <dauwhe> ... that could be an interesting project
17:47:33 <laudrain> WIPO/ABC docuemtns : https://www.accessiblebooksconsortium.org/publishing/en/accessible_best_practice_guidelines_for_publishers.html
17:47:42 <dauwhe> q?
17:47:46 <liisamk> q+
17:47:51 <laudrain> ack george
17:47:53 <dauwhe> George: two items
17:48:05 <dauwhe> ... DAISY created inclusivepublishing.org website
17:48:10 <laudrain> q?
17:48:20 <dauwhe> ... if that doesn't need the needs for a central place
17:48:34 <dauwhe> ... we've tried not to make it a place where we author everything
17:48:47 <dauwhe> ... we'd be happy to work with w3c for a landing page with a similar purpose
17:49:09 <dauwhe> ... second point: we need to be introducing the whole concept of accessible authoring at a much earlier level
17:49:30 <dauwhe> ... like at university where students are learning to write, they need to be creating a11y publications from the beginning
17:49:38 <dauwhe> ... and there are new tools like word to EPUB
17:49:47 <Jonathan> q+
17:49:48 <dauwhe> ... we need to change society
17:49:59 <dauwhe> ... a11y is integrated into the fabric of society
17:50:03 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:50:14 <dauwhe> liisamk: we can start karen and george by putting something on pbg page
17:50:22 <dauwhe> ... and maybe point to inclusivepublishing.org
17:50:28 <dauwhe> ... and w3c training
17:50:28 <Karen> +1
17:51:08 <dauwhe> ivan: there is a repo
17:51:29 <ivan> -> BG repo https://w3c.github.io/publ-bg/
17:51:36 <laudrain> ack Jonathan
17:51:46 <dauwhe> Jonathan: at NYU we have what george said on our radar
17:51:52 <laudrain> Thnak you Ivan
17:52:00 <dauwhe> ... we have many doctoral students who produce dissertations
17:52:11 <dauwhe> ... and we have to hire outside firms to make the disserations accessible
17:52:19 <Avneesh> q+
17:52:30 <dauwhe> ... so we want to help graduate students make their work accessible
17:52:35 <cri> cri has joined #pbg
17:52:38 <dauwhe> George: I have a solution for you. I'll send an email.
17:52:47 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
17:52:55 <dauwhe> Avneesh: are we collecting this questions somewhere?
17:53:17 <dauwhe> laudrain: we are not collecting them
17:53:19 <cri> +q
17:53:22 <dauwhe> ... it's just a feeling
17:53:27 <liisamk> q+
17:53:30 <dauwhe> ... not very specific questions
17:53:56 <dauwhe> liisamk: Avneesh, the biggest thing that's not available anywhere is a pointer to the laws and their interpretation
17:54:19 <dauwhe> ... I don't think the rest of what we hear isn't that it's available, having pointers would be good
17:54:21 <dauwhe> q?
17:54:56 <laudrain> ack cri
17:55:02 <dauwhe> cri: I was thinking about the information
17:55:02 <laudrain> ack liisamk
17:55:05 <George> Jonathan, please send kerscher@montana.com an email.
17:55:18 <dauwhe> ... if we could look at the paper we've produced
17:55:32 <dauwhe> ... I can send you the link to the paper
17:55:40 <dauwhe> ... there is a lot of material
17:55:48 <dauwhe> ... tutorials and guidelines
17:56:07 <dauwhe> ... but it's difficult for the supplier to the publisher to understand all that without practical training
17:56:21 <dauwhe> ... you need to work with InDesign to make things born accessible
17:56:36 <dauwhe> ... most of the production is done outside the publisher, by the suppliers
17:56:48 <dauwhe> ... and they will not understand the guidelines. They need practical training.
17:57:07 <dauwhe> ... just getting information togehter won't completely solve the problem
17:57:09 <wendyreid> q+
17:57:14 <dauwhe> ... we need practical solutions
17:57:21 <Avneesh> q+
17:57:30 <laudrain> ack wendyreid
17:57:38 <dauwhe> wendyreid: that's the same feedback we got from the summit
17:57:41 <wolfgang> s/togehter/together/
17:58:03 <dauwhe> ... we hope to get more details on what materials the publishers need, and then produce it
17:58:20 <laudrain> LIA paper: https://www.fondazionelia.org/en/e-books-all-towards-accessible-publishing-ecosystem
17:58:56 <dauwhe> Avneesh: the DAISY members are already having a project on making accessible docs in InDesign. This should be available in a year.
17:59:12 <dauwhe> laudrain: we are almost at the hour
17:59:34 <laudrain> ack Avneesh
17:59:34 <dauwhe> ... we have shared a lot of things about a11y. It's an important topic.
17:59:39 <George> Robb who works under Andrew Kirkpatric has been charged with guidance for InDesign. contact me
17:59:40 <dauwhe> ... thanks all.
18:00:01 <ivan> zakim, end meeting
18:00:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Karen, laudrain, wolfgang, dauwhe, Ralph, liisamk, ivan, tzviya, jeff, Bill_Kasdorf, wendyreid, George, Avneesh, rkwright, julieblair,
18:00:04 <Zakim> ... Garth, q+
18:00:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:00:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2020/01/07-pbg-minutes.html Zakim
18:00:06 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, ivan; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:00:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbg
18:00:27 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
18:00:27 <RRSAgent> I see no action items